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Zakari
Lhooq
6 posters
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Lhooq

Lhooq

Number of posts : 17
Registration date : 2007-04-05

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PostSubject: ...   ... Icon_minitimeThu Apr 05, 2007 7:58 am

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Last edited by Lhooq on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Zakari



Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2007-03-02

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeFri Apr 06, 2007 10:47 am

As Ambassador of the I I I I, I bid thee welcome to our meeting place.

On behalf of our noble guild I extend my hand in a gesture of friendship, respect and honour. This is the first step in negotiating diplomatic relations.

I have therefore delivered a petition to your meeting place so that I may be granted permission to speak there on behalf of I I I I.

I respectfully await your response.

-Zakari
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Lhooq

Lhooq

Number of posts : 17
Registration date : 2007-04-05

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeThu Apr 19, 2007 6:42 pm

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Last edited by Lhooq on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zakari



Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2007-03-02

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeFri Apr 20, 2007 12:12 am

Lhooq wrote:
I am surprised and a bit concerned that the IIII would designate an ambassador who is so inexperienced in the history of Mirth, and more importantly the relations between our guildmembers. I am even more concerned when this ambassador introduces himself by boasting about his "bashing noobs." We have recieved your introduction at our meeting place, but I am less than impressed by the diplomatic quality of the emissary. Be sure, the Apostate Cabal, and I personally, have much respect for the IIII, and we do hope to engage in a mutually constructive dialogue. This is precisely why I am confused as to why you have appointed an emissary who is merely a courier, instead of one who would truly speak for your guild.

I had a high opinion of you until this post. Your ability at making assumptions is only surpassed by your self-importance and arrogance. I am fully competent at reading and using forums and I do so. I'm also a quick learner and have a great memory for facts, names and dates.

If you had taken any time to enquire about my comment about "noob bashing" you'll have discovered that it wasn't a boast but was a statement of fact. The fact that I see several members of AC bashing noobs in a similar fashion to myself just goes to further prove your blinkered vision. I do all I can to help new players (newbs in my opinion) but if they refuse to listen to advice and are too lazy to use the resources that are pointed out to them and continually ask the same questions over and over again then they get "bashed". These kinds of players are "noobs", and I hold them in very low esteem. You have no idea about my diplomatic qualities, which I am putting to one side in view of your ill-informed and unsubstantiated opinion of me. You didn't seem to be concerned about these qualities following my first post in your forum, which was quite eloquently diplomatic.

I was already becoming concerned with the new direction and philosophy of IIII. This latest turn of events has aided in the decision regarding my future gametime in MoM. Any relations with you would be totally unacceptable to me, so I'm leaving IIII forthwith.
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Seth`eel

Seth`eel

Number of posts : 25
Registration date : 2006-12-24

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeFri Apr 20, 2007 12:57 am

I'm leaving too.
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Herleva
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Herleva

Number of posts : 77
Registration date : 2006-12-25

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeSat Apr 21, 2007 4:37 am

To avoid further issues concerning "in character" (ic) and "out of character" (ooc)
speech in this forum please visualize the difference before posting. You can use
different colors, brackets for ooc, or some other form like [ooc]text[/ooc].
Do as you wish but don't mix up ooc and ic.

The definitions are arguable, here is what wikipedia tells: ic and ooc

In general, the public channels /o /m /h of mom and all what is said there must be
considered as ooc.
Also words like "powerlevelling" or "noob" are obviousely not used by characters.

If you have a different point of view, please use this thread to argue.

Thanks
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Herleva
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Herleva

Number of posts : 77
Registration date : 2006-12-25

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeMon Apr 23, 2007 2:46 am

In the last days i talked to people and read many log files. Many pieces of the puzzle fell
in my hands and i got an idea how things might have happened.

When i have read the last post from Lhooq about the ambassador i was shocked, but i tried
to consider it as roleplay ignoring the "noob bashing" thing which is ooc. Although i had not
expected this reaction i would have tried to deal with it, seeing it as a charge of Apostate
Cabal.

Then i have read the reply from Zakari, and was shocked even more. Obviously he took
Lhooqs post personal and replied according to that.

I was not sure if it was the ooc part that caused that or if you really had quarrels as players,
since the conversations in the AC forum are out of character.

Then i heard that Zakari felt like a pawn which was chosen as a sacrifice. And that he felt not
informed enough about what should happen. That made me angry because sending an
ambassador was discussed with at least three officers and my instructions to Zakari
were very clear. I told Zakari that i want to send an ambassador in the leaders stead to
cause an affront, since the Leader of AC conferred the honor on us to appear
personally. To return that honor it would have been adequate to let Faaris reply.

That's it, no more i intended with sending an ambassador, and that was discussed with
officers forehand. I asked Zakari if he wants to play the ambassador and told him exactly
that. The plan was to cause an affront, he should act absolutely neutral, and that he did.


When Zakari told other guild members that he had no clue about his role, i was very
surprised and wondered why he lied, because i explained him his task.
Now, i don't think Zakari is a liar, he had just trusted someone whom i will call Ex-Member.



Well, why things turned out how they did?


Apparently Ex-Member told him that he is expected to be a pawn in an intrigue plotted
by me, and that Lhooq is supposed to denounce him.
At the same time Ex-Member told Lhooq that I expect him to denounce the
ambassador.

I will repeat: the council of I I I I never plotted this. And every decision is counselled with
officers before becoming valid.

Zakari felt insulted, betrayed and exploited. Now that makes sense to me.



I don't think Ex-Member had expected the situation we have now. I think he wanted to
spice things up, drive them forward, thinking that nothing happens if he does not start.
It is a matter of fact that Ex-Member was indeed not even a member of I I I I at that
time. He left I I I I on sunday, april 15th, few days before Lhooq and Zakaris posts.

Nevertheless Ex-Member caused trouble with his ill counsel that i can not forgive him.


It is indeed sad how things turned out, but i hope that the actions of an ex-member will
not cause trouble again, and i would appreciate a new start of diplomatics In Character.
As i mentioned in the post above it is very important to tell both ic and ooc apart in such
matters.

If Apostate Cabal is willing to resume diplomatic relations, please let me know.


Thanks
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Seth`eel

Seth`eel

Number of posts : 25
Registration date : 2006-12-24

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeMon Apr 23, 2007 8:30 am

So Zakari left because of me...because i told him that he was a pawn and so.
Why not asking Zakari himself ?

Quote :
That made me angry because sending an
ambassador was discussed with at least three officers and my instructions to Zakari
were very clear. I told Zakari that i want to send an ambassador in the leaders stead to
cause an affront, since the Leader of AC conferred the honor on us to appear
personally. To return that honor it would have been adequate to let Faaris reply.
and:
Quote :
Apparently Ex-Member told him that he is expected to be a pawn in an intrigue plotted
by me, and that Lhooq is supposed to denounce him.
At the same time Ex-Member told Lhooq that I expect him to denounce the
ambassador.
Looks like same to me...

Quote :
I will repeat: the council of I I I I never plotted this. And every decision is counselled with
officers before becoming valid.
I never heard about Zakari's mission, i asked you many times your plan you never answered me.
So how could you explain that I could tell Zak and Lhooq your plan?

Quote :
Now, i don't think Zakari is a liar, he had just trusted someone whom i will call Ex-Member.
Don't you think Zak is mature enough to make his own opinion?
So he trusted me and left the guild...

Now three guys have left the guild, there is something wrong with the guild isn't it?
No of course, the guild is perfect, all troubles are coming from me...
When i left the guild i planed all this, i went to meet Zakari and told him to follow me.
I talked to grom and influenced his mind to leave the guild and to follow my path.

Seriously...i was more depressed than having that kind of ideas in my mind.
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Herleva
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Herleva

Number of posts : 77
Registration date : 2006-12-25

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeMon Apr 23, 2007 9:31 am

Just for the log...

Seth`eel wrote:
So Zakari left because of me...because i told him that he was a pawn and so.
Why not asking Zakari himself ?

Quote :
That made me angry because sending an
ambassador was discussed with at least three officers and my instructions to Zakari
were very clear. I told Zakari that i want to send an ambassador in the leaders stead to
cause an affront, since the Leader of AC conferred the honor on us to appear
personally. To return that honor it would have been adequate to let Faaris reply.
and:
Quote :
Apparently Ex-Member told him that he is expected to be a pawn in an intrigue plotted
by me, and that Lhooq is supposed to denounce him.
At the same time Ex-Member told Lhooq that I expect him to denounce the
ambassador.
Looks like same to me...

Quote :
I will repeat: the council of I I I I never plotted this. And every decision is counselled with
officers before becoming valid.
I never heard about Zakari's mission, i asked you many times your plan you never answered me.
So how could you explain that I could tell Zak and Lhooq your plan?

Quote :
Now, i don't think Zakari is a liar, he had just trusted someone whom i will call Ex-Member.
Don't you think Zak is mature enough to make his own opinion?
So he trusted me and left the guild...

Now three guys have left the guild, there is something wrong with the guild isn't it?
No of course, the guild is perfect, all troubles are coming from me...
When i left the guild i planed all this, i went to meet Zakari and told him to follow me.
I talked to grom and influenced his mind to leave the guild and to follow my path.

Seriously...i was more depressed than having that kind of ideas in my mind.
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Lhooq

Lhooq

Number of posts : 17
Registration date : 2007-04-05

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeMon Apr 23, 2007 11:33 am

...


Last edited by Lhooq on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Herleva
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Herleva

Number of posts : 77
Registration date : 2006-12-25

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeMon Apr 23, 2007 12:41 pm

Lhooq wrote:
With regard to this, a question remains... if the IIII planned to send an ambassador specifically to cause an affront, why were you surprised when I denounced him?


I don't like open questions, so i will answer this remaining one. I was surprised by the
denouncing because it has no fundament.

You are talking about the lack of experience about Mirths history. Did Lhooq ever talk with
The Ambassador about history?

Furthermore you complain about the lack of experience considering relations between
members of our guilds. Did Lhooq actually speak with The Ambassador about such relations?

You tell that The Ambassador introduced himself by boasting about his "bashing noobs.".
But how can an Ambassador know what "noobs" are? The player behind The
Ambassador knows indeed what noobs are and "bashes" them in the public channels
when it comes to stupid game questions.


Let's see what's left. The first two complains are based on events that never took place.

Imagine i would create a story where Lhooq is a traitor. And i tell in that story that he
sold out his whole guild to the enemy and whatnot. Then, because Lhooq is a traitor,
i let his guild set a bounty on him. I post this story in the forum. Would you play Lhooq
as a traitor ingame? I don't think so. Because this events never took place and you won't
let others deicide how to play your character.

For that reason the first two complains are invalid.


The third complain points out "noob bashing".
So whom are you denouncing with this? In any case not The Ambassador.


That is why i was surprised by your post and still am.


Greetings
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Lhooq

Lhooq

Number of posts : 17
Registration date : 2007-04-05

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeMon Apr 23, 2007 2:23 pm

...


Last edited by Lhooq on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Narita
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Narita

Number of posts : 38
Registration date : 2006-12-25

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeTue Apr 24, 2007 2:47 am

I believe the situation is becoming muddled since the embassy inopportunely referred to out of character topics, which eventually contaminated the whole plot, mixed up with other considerations.

I don't see the plot to continue without a flashback.

Sorry about that.
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Zakari



Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2007-03-02

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeTue Apr 24, 2007 6:35 am

To clear a few things up......

Firstly, I took Lhooq's post as an ooc post that was a comment on my MoM ability and experience based on the fact that I had only been playing for 11 weeks. It would seem that his post was an attempt at RP which was seriously flawed due to the reference to "noob bashing". My post in AC was clearly ooc and if there had been some differentiation between ic and ooc comments in both forums then the misunderstanding between Lhooq and myself would not have happened.

I apologise for my reactionary response but I interpretted Lhooq's post in the terms of "I (Lhooq) have been playing MoM for months/years. You (Zakari) have been playing for 11 weeks. Why did they appoint a noob as the Ambassador?"

This was a misunderstanding on my part and I retract completely my response to it. Sorry.


Secondly, I was not aware that "Ex-Member" had left IIII until AFTER I posted my reply to Lhooq. Ex-Member had not spoken to me, given me any advice and did not at any time discuss my role or the plans for my role.



Thirdly, when I was asked to be Ambassador I was instructed to be completely neutral and to make a post that lacked any substance. Which is exactly what I did. From that point on I was told virtually nothing. When I'm part of any guild in any MMO I expect there to be open discussion within the guild before any major changes take place. That doesn't appear to be the case with IIII. It seems just 2 or 3 Officers make all the decisions and their attutide seems to be that they shout "JUMP!" and the rest of us are expected to reply "How high?"


Well that's my opinion and it's why I left.

After my post Dar told me that I had been chosen as you wanted a native English speaker to be the Ambassador, so please make up your mind as to why I was chosen. If I had been told precisely what my role was and that I was supposed to be an affront to Lhooq then do you really think I would have reacted the way I did? I would have been pleased that he had been offended and would have continued my role to add more fuel to the fire. I certainly wouldn't have ranted the way I did and then left the guild. So before you go blaming other people I suggest you take a good look at yourself and stop acting as if you're making it up as you go because you lack any cohesive and structured plan.
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mora

mora

Number of posts : 36
Registration date : 2006-12-25

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeWed Apr 25, 2007 5:09 am

I usually prefer to stay behind the spot of attention, but, as this „welcome“ thread has become a collection of point of views, to use a neutral description, I want to add mine aswell, because it may let appear some different point of views, related to the context i have, under another light: the good intention all of the participants had.

I assume that I only can try to keep it as neutral as possible, but there are some points where I won’t be free enough to tell them without taking position or expressing only my opinion, it’s up to the reader to make his own image, to agree or to disagree.
Also: i don’t want to blame here anyone for anything, though there might be some aspects that remain questionable. I want to apologize in advance for my english, I hope i did not use too often words that will be percieved by the reader in a not-intented way.



The day Herleva talked to us in the IRC Coucil channel about Lhooq’s post and the plan he posted in this thread, was not the first time we talked about possible alliances with other guilds of MoM: We already had considered about possible alliances before in our channel, several times, and at least one time in concrete about AC.
I still remember Herleva, Setill and Narita weighing up two guilds to become allies or enemies. I don’t know if Grom was there too, and I just followed the conversation in passive form.
Setill first was against AC becoming our enemies, because he shared friendship with Lhooq and other members of the AC, that was his argument to ally with them.
Exactly for this reason AC had been focussed by Herleva to be an appropriate enemy. His argument was the importance of having a good relationship OOC, or even a friendship, to avoid or solve problems due to a stable backround.
So the idea, to roleplay with AC as enemies, was already spoken out.
Narita remained mostly neutral, i had the impression that for her was not the question of „who“ but of „how“ more important.
The conversation went on, and Herleva mentioned that we could have them maybe first as enemies (with friendly relationship OOC), and after, if in MoM would be a bigger offer of grewn-up guilds to fight with, to maybe ally with them. At this point I agreed as it seemed to me the most interesting suggestion; I don’t remember Setill saying explicitly „yes“, but i remember how Setill adapted the idea, expanding it into ‚showing other guilds how to make up a guild war’ and to fight them later unified.
But no, it wasn’t yet decided at this moment.
This was what i have been aware of, before Lhooq’s post was in our forum.

So, suddenly there was Lhooq’s post.

Setill:
I absolutely believe that you replied because you are an impulsive character, you were happily excited and just wanted to return the kind greetings of your friend.

The day we counselled about Lhooq’s first post, was the day after Setill’s reply in the AC-Forum. Narita was there, Grom was there, Herleva was there, I was there and Setill, you as well have been there.

I have no logs to prove it, but i still remember you very well, how you tried to rectify your IC-posting in the AC-forum, this was the day when you mentioned for the first time (in front of me, and if I remember well) your impression to have been censored by us.
I imagine it might have been hard to understand in this very moment that we took your good intention, a kind reply, as a mistake.
But the question with whom to ally or not was not new to us, and to answer directly to Lhooq’s post without knowing what the rest of us thought about it, was a rashly act, because it skipped the decision that still wasn’t made, that had remained open.

Further I remember your presence, while in continuation the plan was presented by Herleva and discussed by the rest of us, because you wanted urgently to become the diplomatic one, that should take up the contact to the AC. But Zakari turned out to be chosen for this part.
As Herleva, at the end of this council, announced to contact Lhooq and Zakari, you kept on asking Herleva what he would write to Lhooq, but, we all remained without knowing any further details.

So, I don’t know why you say that you did not know anything about „the plan“, maybe you have been meanwhile paying attention to your children, surrounded by your family, no idea, there could have been many reasons why it finally slipped out of your memory.


Zakari:

I am really sorry about how things turned out.

The reasons why I agreed to the idea to send you were the following three:

I saw you as a very active participant of the public channels, and as native English speaker, two arguments that I consider as very important when it comes to diplomatics with other native English speakers.
You maybe agree with me when I mention that, even sharing the first lenguange, misunderstandings appear, and if a person with a lower level is involved, the chance to get into a misunderstanding grows.

I thought it was a good idea to involve a new member, that, for my perception, was more present everywhere but in the guild, just to get him closer to the guild.

I wanted not to be Setill the one who was send out for diplomatics. He had shown in different occasions in the past that he is not able to keep neutrality (Sorry, Setill, but you are really very impulsive, and according to the mood, in good or negative way), and also reacts without holding council with the rest of us.

In addition to what Herleva already said of „the plan“ I may say, that I not only understood it as an affront, but especially not as one that should cause an immediatly negative reaction.
I understood it as adding a kind of political aspect, a necessary affront:
As there already had been posted by Setill a pleased IC-answer, - but the guilds plan was not in concrete to start an alliance, nor to declare war - , there just had to follow a „stop“, the (decent imho) affront, neutral and quickly, to give more playground, room and time to devolope story and roleplay, in fact, to discuss and prepare whatever would be necessary.
Therefor the one with the diplomatic role was foreseen to act neutral but immediately.

Now I was not there when Zakari and Herleva talked, I imagine that both thought the presentation of the role was clear and what was expected had been understood.
So, I believe that Herleva did not give wrong instructions. You talked about it, but not aware that each background was a very different one.
-My point of view of course, referring to what I understood by „the plan“ (presented by Herleva), and having followed the discussion in this thread-

I don’t know exactly for what reasons others decided in your special case, but each of us was always able to express in discussions his/her own opinions and critics.

Zakari, I hope you might see now, that the impression you got of ‚2 or 3 make the decision and the other’s have to jump’ just was an impression. And none of us, not Herleva, Setill or the rest would give wrong instructions on purpose.



There is still another aspect at the very bottom of all, that explains how the situation became tensioned and how aroused the impression of an intrigue, though I really don’t like to touch that.

Setill already left the guild once in... december(?!) after a sudden, but very long discussion, where he wanted Grom, Herleva and me to decide to choose him or Narita. We refused to decide, so he left. The next day when I came online, he asked me to invite him back into the guild again, he apologized for his behaviour, it seemed the two had gone on with eachother, as they did so many times before and after.

So, Setill’s second leaving on sunday, april the 15th, was reasoned by him with the following four points in our IRC-Channel:

„1. I can’t stand Narita no more
2. The guild is taking direction I never wish
3. I feel better alone
4. I don’t like to be censored“

I am able to quote here, because I made a screenshot.

He left the channel, but started to pm me to explain his point of view with details, and asked through me to join again the channel to discuss these four points with all.
This discussion, with a duration of aproximately 3 hours, was patiently moderated by Grom to guarantee an oversight, so Herleva, Narita, Hydrargyrum and I remained silent and followed.
The discussion was weird, but, all the time Setill pointed out that we would be manipulated by Narita, that she would lead the guild according to her intentions, harrassing Setill, and that we would not be aware of it. At the same time, he stated his love for the guild,.It was a very despairing situation, for us, we saw Setill totally overwhelmed by wrath against Narita, struggling to „make us see“, and for him, eager to point out that he was telling the truth and loving the guild.
The last half hour I talked with Setill, Grom left the chatroom for a short while to calm down, and Herleva left as well but without returning. From this last half hour I still have a log that i forwarded to Herleva to show him what he missed.
As the discussion was finished by Setill’s leaving because there was no ending with consense to expect, Setill told in PM to me, that he was sincere, adding „ can’t buy back yesterday“ and „I used to destroy things I loved“, what I repeated in the Guildcouncil. No doubt about that he really suffered.

The next day Setill came again, because he still cared about the guild, to give us advices with good intention, how we should present us as a guild, but, no one was able to talk normally, not Setill, not me or the others, evidently because the day before. There was just no base to communicate in a normal way, and we refused to talk to let calm down our mood, while Setill insisted to talk to us and to present his ideas to a guild he just had left, not wanting to harm anyone but to spice up the guild’s evolution.


Why am I telling all this?

The week since Setill’s leaving was still overloaded with tension, (a tension that was build up since Setill started to claim out that he was censored, cause he repeated it whereever he could) and Lhooq’s post, followed by Zakari’s reply and Setill’s „i am leaving too“ after, was like an ultimative blast.
I read it at work, couldn’t get why Lhooq suddenly dennounced Zakari OOC, and thought there might have been a bad argumentation in the MoM-Channels that I did not know about.
Zakari’s post after was a shock, I would never had thought he would let such an obviously provocating post touch his person, and leave us then without talking to none of us.
The occuring idea, not only in Herleva’s mind but also in mine, it could have been an intentioned intrigue or even unintended trigger caused by Setill, may now appear more understandable, as we know that Setill always tries to explain himself to everybody, if possible, even when his mood makes him saying things he later regrets, keeping in mind the point that he reacts very impulsive, and that he was the one with the closest contact to Lhooq and Zakari.

I am convinced that Setill never wanted all this to happen, nor that he intended anything but to find ground again after his leaving, feeling refused and hurt by us.

I am as well convinced that Zakari did the best he could, according to what he understood of the issue, that surely was much less than i have written here.

Lhooq also posted in his forum that there was not much tradition in his guild to roleplay, that there still was a need to discuss about IC and OOC, so in my opinion in any case: A really a lack of communication, a consense providing that Herleva, Lhooq and Zakari had the same understanding, but obviously it wasn’t so.

There was no bad intention by none.
And I think no reason to point from one to the other to find victims or guilty persons. From my point of view.

For me now it seems to be an amazing mix of a lot of good intentions, expected agreement of the matter of course (to mention just the biggest misunderstanding), a row of failures that were only failure if you where at the opposite side, with a profound conflict before.

But maybe, this post just was just the latest failure, with no bad intention.


-mora-
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Seth`eel

Seth`eel

Number of posts : 25
Registration date : 2006-12-24

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PostSubject: Re: ...   ... Icon_minitimeThu Apr 26, 2007 12:05 am

Quote :
This discussion, with a duration of aproximately 3 hours, was patiently moderated by Grom to guarantee an oversight, so Herleva, Narita, Hydrargyrum and I remained silent and followed.
The discussion was weird, but, all the time Setill pointed out that we would be manipulated by Narita, that she would lead the guild according to her intentions, harrassing Setill, and that we would not be aware of it. At the same time, he stated his love for the guild,.It was a very despairing situation, for us, we saw Setill totally overwhelmed by wrath against Narita, struggling to „make us see“, and for him, eager to point out that he was telling the truth and loving the guild.

I misunderstood Narita's speech, I left the guild because I felt threatened, I understood "If you refuse to do it, no one would play with you anymore".
I saw no reason for Narita to tell me this and that's why I wanted to know your opinion and Narita to explain this accusation "Do i really do nothing for the guild? Is Narita right?"
So i thought you were hostile to me as you didn't answer...I didn't think you were manipulated but more influenced by the silence as I questioned and Narita didn't answer, and more i asked more i became mad and more i became mad, more my madness would influence your point of view. If it was intended to push me to be mad like this, it's a manipulation and I know Narita knows this part of my personality.
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